Ну так читать-то можно много - главное, что читать: можно Вики, а можно - профессионалов, ученых, докторов. Вот, например, интересно будет почитать доктора Michael R. Eades, MD:

Meat eating made us human. The anthropological evidence strongly supports the idea that the addition of increasingly larger amounts of meat in the diet of our predecessors was essential in the evolution of the large human brain. Our large brains came at the metabolic expense of our guts, which shrank as our brains grew.

In April 1995 an article appeared in the journal Current Anthropology that was an intellectual tour de force and, in my view, an example of a perfect theoretical paper. “The Expensive-Tissue Hypothesis” (ETH) by Leslie Aiello and Peter Wheeler demonstrated by a brilliant thought experiment that our species didn’t evolve to eat meat but evolved because it ate meat.
http://www.amazon.com/Catching-Fire-Coo ... lnk-c27-20


А это не из книги, это просто некоторые аргументы против полного исключения мяса из своего рациона:


Our knowledge of human evolution is clear and not disputed: our ancestors ate meat - as evidenced by (a) our digestive systems, which are adapted to process meat, and (b) our micro and macro nutritional needs, which are well aligned with meat's nutritional profile.

Everything follows from this evolutionary fact, such as the superior bioavailability of the nutrients in meat, which is enhanced by the macro properties of meat like, e.g., being accompanied by fat (most vitamins are fat soluble).

Look at the supplement aisle next time you visit CVS or WF: the majority of them are products found in animal products: choline, omega 3, taurine, b12, vitamin A, etc. Toward similar ends, go to fitday and compare the nutrient profiles of liver, steak, eggs, and broccoli. Hint: broccoli performs well, but it loses comparatively, and that's without introducing bioavailability issues.

Meat makes you strong and lean; veggies make you weak and puffy. Vegetarianism mistakenly tries to have nutritionally supplementary foods play primary dietary roles, an odd task that requires numerous consequent efforts in order to maintain feasibility, let alone optimal health. This move against simplicity is a simple but clear signal from nature (read: our evolved biology).

While CAFO animals are unethically treated, organic pastured animals live happy lives and their consumers have no reason to morally question their slaughter, which is probably the most humane food-motivated killing in the animal kingdom. When we support the right farming practices, both parties win. This should be embraced as a source of moral or ethical pride.

Most seemingly pro-vegetarian empirical studies suffer from an inability to (or simple failure to) control for confounding predictor variables -- namely, whatever other health promoting behaviors that S's who choose to eat vegetarian also choose bc they perceive them as such. Control for these, and watch the benefits disappear.

Being vegetarian is likely to result in increased consumption of sugar, processed carbohydrate, and soy or soy-based foods. This isnt a necessary consequence, but it is highly likely bc foods containing them ease the burden of maintaining the diet.

И материала серьезного в интернете полно - и о том, какие последствия вегетарианства для беременных женщин (плода), и для нормального развития и здоровья малышей. Больше мне тратить время свое на дискуссию не хочется, потому что "вики" в доказательство или статейки из женских журналов приводить мне не хочется, а серьезные источники искать надо, что занимает время. Так что кому надо, кто серьезно к своему здоровью относится - сами покопаются и найдут.

Вот еще одна очень интересная книга, автор - веган с 20-летним стажем, о том, как она полностью пересмотрела свои взгляды на веганство. Думаю, Инсомнии будет очень интересно почитать:

Further examining the question of what to eat from the perspective of both human and environmental health, the account goes beyond health choices and discusses potential moral issues from eating—or not eating—animals. Through the deeply personal narrative of someone who practiced veganism for 20 years, this unique exploration also discusses alternatives to industrial farming, reveals the risks of a vegan diet, and explains why animals belong on ecologically sound farms.

А зря. Практически в каждом источнике рекомендуют вегетарианцам добавлять в ежедневный рацион витамины и пищевые добавки, потому как очень тяжело получить сбалансированное питание на такой диете.

Поскольку это темы "вопросов" и "ответов", то я тогда тоже спрошу, и вегетарианцев, и невегетарианцев: скажите, а в чем вообще смысл всех этих сражений над тарелкой еды?.. Вам не все равно, кто что съел или не съел?

Какие сражения? Просто на вопросы отвечаем... Нас же обвиняют, что якобы у нас аргументов нет, просто "мяса хочется", так вот мы и приводим аргументы. Не успела в той теме ответить, пока со ссылками возилась - тему закрыли уже. А вообще, чтобы серьезные источники, исследования нарыть - это времени много нужно, это вам не вики цитировать. Поэтому я вообще-то не намеревалась целую дискуссию начинать, просто не хотелось мне свой пост терять, уже написанный, из-за закрытой темы

Что ищешь то и найдешь, хочешь доказательств что мясоедение - супер полезно, найдешь, и т.д. Фильтровать надо и смотреть кто в чем заинтересован финансово. Фармакология и медицина очень-очень сильно заинтересованы в том, чтобы правда не вылезла наружу, поэтому я им не верю. По этой причине они не будут рвать ж**у проверять что вредно что полезно, они скажут народу самый минимум чтобы усыпить бдительность общества. А мы, как табун, так и будем им верить.

Мне пофиг, как я уже сказала. Я просто время провожу.

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Ничто не стоит нам так дорого и не выглядит так дешево, как наши собственные понты!

В прошлой теме были даны ссылки и названия книг очень известных ученых, как Академик Уголев, профессор Арнольд Эрет и многих других, прочитанных нами, мной и Laara.
Lesja1 почему-то увидела только пару коротких цитат из Вики, определения которой я использовала. Как грицца "смотрит в книгу, видит..."

Я почитаю блог доктора, цитаты из которого Вы привели как доказательства. Но уже первая фраза цитаты повергла меня в легкий ступор "Meat eating made us human". А я почему-то считала что совсем другие факторы.

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Ничто не стоит нам так дорого и не выглядит так дешево, как наши собственные понты!

Вот статья про то что считается экстримом. Она не про сыроедение vs мясоедение и прочее, она про то что люди нашего времени думают о еде и ее источниках. Что они считают экстримом, а что нет. Я специально не привожу источник, потому что эта статья - food for thought, как пример, как упражнение, как вопрос, хотим ли мы что-то знать, хотим ли мы что-то выяснить, для нашего же блага. Вот и подумайте, как вы относитесь к тому что прочитали, с чем вы согласны? а с чем - нет? Я это к тому, что верить надо себе в первую очередь, и самому же делать выводы. Это как мой муж иногда заявляет: "Dr. Oz сказал... что надо вот этот витамин обязательно принимать, иначе кирдык". Dr. Oz сказал, - это все, истина в последней инстанции. А то что ему за это немаленькую сумму отвалили... неужели тебя это не беспокоит? Почему мы верим докторам?

What is a "normal" diet? Consumers and food industry pundits have it all backwards

I was describing the raw foods diet to someone the other day, and they remarked, "Well I'm not sure I want to do that. I don't want to do something so extreme," and I said, "What do you mean extreme? You think the raw foods diet is extreme?" Then it hit me: Most people think that the processed food diet -- loaded with chemicals, additives, preservatives, artificial plastic fats and milled grains that are depleted of nutrients -- is normal.
In this article, we're going to explore what's normal versus extreme when it comes to food. And on that topic, I have a very different opinion than the masses. My opinion is that "normal" means what the human body was designed to consume. What's normal is food from nature. What is completely abnormal, radical or extreme is food that is made in a factory; food that is processed and so completely unnatural that if you throw it outside the animals won't even eat it.

That's the kind of food the uninformed masses eat every single day. People have no idea what they're really eating. They think it's normal to have blueberry bagels made with antifreeze. That's one of the ingredients in blueberry bagels, and you can find it right there listed on the package. Look for polypropylene glycol. That's antifreeze. You can find other foods made with car wax. There's actually carnauba wax in foods, and people think that's completely normal. There are petroleum chemicals in foods in the form of artificial colors, and people think that's normal too. People accept this as normal because that's what everybody else is doing, not because it's actually normal for the human body to process these substances. They think it's all okay because that's what has been made standard by the marketing and advertising of the food industry.

Overall, people have a very bizarre idea of what is normal, and you hear this in another common myth, which is that all foods, even ones that are bad for you, can be eaten in moderation. The food industry claims that all foods can be part of a healthy diet. You usually hear this from companies that are selling you the most disease-causing food and beverage products in the entire food supply. Soft drink companies, for example, say that soft drinks can be part of a healthy diet. They are implying that you can eat a little bit of everything, no matter how bad it is for your health, and still somehow be healthy. This goes along with the idea that processed foods and junk foods are normal.

What's really compatible with your body?

When you are eating the diet that nature intended, you are eating the diet that your body was designed to consume: A diet of raw fruits and vegetables, nuts, seeds and leaves, right from nature to your body. That's the only diet that you were designed to consume and that is normal. Now, anything that diverts you from that diet is abnormal and, in fact, anything that takes you away from that diet is going to promote chronic disease.
So, one soft drink a day is less healthy than no soft drinks a day. One soft drink a day makes a difference; it makes you less healthy. In fact, it causes a lot of problems for your pancreas and blood sugar. A soft drink a day promotes diabetes and obesity. It can promote blood sugar imbalances, mood swings; violent, aggressive behavior (especially in young males), and nutritional deficiencies, especially the B vitamins, which are extremely important for your cardiovascular system and nervous system health. In my view, one soft drink a day, even though the soft drink companies say you can consume it in moderation, takes you away from what is healthy. A healthy human diet does not consist of soft drinks, nor does it consist of Big Macs, french fries or processed, homogenized, pasteurized milk from cows. That is not a normal part of the human diet.

Taking medication is not normal either.

Human beings did not evolve to consume prescription drugs either. If they had, prescription drugs would grow on bushes and trees (or the body would produce them automatically), but they don't, which is a strong indication that they're abnormal. Prescription drugs are now the fourth-leading cause of death in this country, according to the American Medical Association. Drugs that have been approved as safe by the Food and Drug Administration kill 100,000 Americans each and every year. That is an astounding statistic, and that, friends, is not normal.
Pushers of drugs and medications may try to convince you that taking drugs is normal, of course. I've heard stories of doctors who would try to convince you that removing your organs is normal. I know someone who had gallstones. He went to see a surgeon and the surgeon said, "Well, we have to take your gallbladder out. Don't worry about it. We do it all the time. It's a normal procedure. No problem."

So this person had his gall bladder removed, and I'm thinking to myself, "Whoa, whoa, why do you think the body builds these organs?" The gallbladder is intimately connected to the digestive system. It has an important role, especially in the digestion of fats. If you don't have a gallbladder, you're going to have some major problems absorbing fat-soluble vitamins for the rest of your life, and surgeons don't even tell you this information. They take out your gallbladder and fail to warn you to take nutritional supplements to compensate for the loss your body has sustained.

Society has been distorted by the food industry, which is why artificial foods are "normal" and vegetables are "extreme"

We have a very strange culture in America today. People think that processed, manufactured, artificial foods -- the foods with cancer-causing chemicals - are completely normal. Yet, at the same time, they think that foods from nature, for which your body has a built-in blueprint of compatibility, are completely abnormal. That's how distorted our culture has become. That's how the food industry, the FDA, the USDA and all the other organizations that are colluding to misinform people, have managed to turn the truth upside down. They've managed to convince people that true is false and false is true; that normal is extreme and that extreme is normal, and they've done a very good job of it.
Now what happens if you eat natural food for which your body was designed? If you return to a lifestyle of foods from nature in their uncooked form, you will find yourself moving rapidly towards a state of perfect human health. It's no exaggeration. If you give up all processed food, completely, 100 percent; if you give up all animal products 100 percent, plus all cooked foods 100 percent and eat nothing but fresh vegetables, fruit, nuts, seeds, leaves and tubers from nature, you will rapidly enhance your health, reverse degenerative disease and utterly eliminate your need for prescription drugs.

What is health really? Health is a state of harmony between you and the natural environment. That's really the true measure of health. Doesn't it make sense that to attain a high state of health, you should consume the foods for which your body was naturally designed? It's built into your genes. You have a genetic blueprint to consume low-glycemic foods, high-fiber foods, foods with natural minerals, vitamins and phytonutrients. This compatibility is in your genes. Unprocessed, uncooked foods right out of nature are what you are designed to consume. So it only makes sense that, as you move closer to that diet - known as the raw foods vegan diet - you will attain a state of perfect harmony with yourself. It only makes sense that any deviation from that -- processed foods, factory foods, foods with a long shelf life, etc. - will take you away from a state of perfect health.

That is why we have so much chronic disease and strange behavior in the population today. What you eat affects how you think; it affects your behavior, moods and level of aggression. This is all influenced by your food choice. Obviously if you want a state of perfect health, you have to eat the food that you're compatible with. The natural, raw foods vegan diet right out of nature is innately compatible with human biology.

Hot dogs and other deviant foods

You want to know what's truly dietarily deviant? Taking the carcass of a cow that's been shot up with hormones and antibiotics, that has been denied sunlight and a healthy environment, and squeezing that carcass through an advanced meat-recovery (AMR) machine so that the juice comes out of every bone and spinal cord tissue, then capturing the juice, blending it with other cow parts, pressing it into the shape of a hot dog, adding cancer-causing sodium nitrite to make it turn red, packaging it in plastic and calling it food. That's extreme. That's not even food; that's some kind of manufactured horror that I wouldn't touch. I didn't even mention all the chemicals they add in there, and all the other cow parts like lips, hoofs and anything that counts as protein. It's amazing what is considered "meat" in the food industry these days. Astonishingly, most consumers think eating a hot dog is "normal" but eating raw okra is weird.
Let me give you another example of what's extreme: Taking a grain of wheat from the grasses of nature, stripping away virtually all the nutrition in that wheat berry -- the fiber, the healthy oils, the protein content, all the vitamins and minerals -- and leaving only a high carbohydrate, nutritionally depleted endosperm, then grinding that into flour, bleaching it with chemicals that cause diabetes, and using it to make cereals, crackers, cookies, biscuits, pasta and all sorts of other groceries that you find at the store.

That is extreme. That is abnormal. It is completely incompatible with the human body, yet most people consider those foods to be normal. They think macaroni and cheese is normal. Here are some of its ingredients: Petroleum products, processed salt, nerve toxins and chemicals that, in a different variation, are used to pave roads. Similarly, people have no idea what's in their powdered coffee creamer. It's almost pure hydrogenated oils and corn syrup solids. That's it. It's just sugar and plastic fat. I believe instant creamer delivers instant harm to the health of anyone foolish enough to put it in their coffee. Ultimately, the consumption of hydrogenated oils and refines sugars can lead to diabetes, heart disease, arteriosclerosis, nervous system disorders, mood swings and birth defects due to malabsorption of essential fatty acids

People can't seem to grasp the abnormality of a diet that is completely incompatible with nature

People think it's normal to drink three cups of coffee a day. They think it's normal to drink soda for breakfast. People think it's normal to eat meat five days a week, or nacho chips laced with chemical excitotoxins and artificial color. But none of this is normal. This is all extreme. This is all a dangerous deviation from the diet that's truly natural and normal.
The only people truly eating a "normal" diet today are the vegans. Everybody else is eating some deviation from that normal diet, yet they think a vegan diet is "extreme." But it's the standard American diet that's blatantly incompatible with the human body. It's incompatible with sustainable agriculture and balance between people and nature. It's incompatible with clear-headedness and lucid thinking. It's incompatible with internal health at all levels, including the health of women who are pregnant and trying to give life to another being.

Now, in another sense, the standard American diet of death and disease is of course normal from the point of view that everybody is doing it, so the extreme has become socially acceptable. The foods that kill you are the foods that virtually everyone consumes. That's why these people think their food choice is normal. That's why they think that you, as a vegetarian or a vegan or someone who avoids dangerous ingredients, are abnormal or extreme. They, the ignorant masses eating death and disease, think you are a weirdo for eating foods that actually promote clear thinking and biological health. The irony is hilarious.

Only someone who has been educated in this information can understand the different frames of reference that are at play here. The dynamics can be a bit complicated at times. There's no question whatsoever from the point of view of what is compatible for the human body, that processed foods, restaurant foods, fast foods and snack foods are abnormal and extreme. Did you know we have guacamole dip sold in the grocery stores right now that doesn't even have avocado in it? How's that for extreme? We even have purple ketchup. We have cheese sold in a can that looks like you could use it to inflate the tires on your car. That's extreme. Those are just a few of the many examples of the extreme foods that people accept as normal.

Come to think of it, I suppose it's also "normal" to be taking antidepressant drugs, cholesterol medications and diabetes drugs. It's also normal to be diseased, mentally slow, emotionally unstable, physically inept, cardiovascularly weak and spiritually bankrupt. If you want to be normal, there's a whole world of people waiting to welcome you to their way of life. Whip out that pharmacy discount card. Make another appointment with your doctor. Be sure to tune in to cable news so you can be told what to think today. And don't ever do anything strange or odd that might be non-conformist, or your peers will talk badly about you behind your back.

But for the rest of us who wish to live beyond the norm, there's veganism. It's the diet of the few intelligent, lucid, advanced human beings who now inhabit this planet. Raw foods is a big part of that diet, although it's not necessary to be 100 percent raw. Veganism is gaining momentum among the informed, thinking people of the world, and you don't even have to be a pure vegan to experience the benefits of this diet. Just experiment with it and see what works for you. There's no doubt you'll find, as have millions of others, that avoiding animal products, processed foods and manufactured foods, while consuming fresh, organic produce from nature, is the surest path to health, vitality, longevity and lucidity.

Все че-нибудь стоящее, касающее натурапатии и правильного питания было написано где-то до середины прошлого века, чуть позже может быть. Далее началось бурное развитие фармакологии, врачи разделились на узкие специализации и стали лечить болезнь, а не больного. Врачи продают то, что имеет спрос и приносит прибыль, а не то, что действительно полезно. Стало выгодно лечить, но не вылечивать.

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Ничто не стоит нам так дорого и не выглядит так дешево, как наши собственные понты!

Думаю, вам понравится книга, о которой я выше сказала (и картинку привела). Автор - веган с 20-летним стажем, и все эти вопросы осветила в книге, кому что выгодно - не выгодно, и почему она сама пeрестала быть веганом.

Думаю, нет. Почитала три страницы отзывов - хватило. Я не хочу тратить свое время на книги, у которых треть рейтинга составляет 1 звезда. Я не верю таким книгам, особенно после прочтения отзывов. Когда у книги 30 отзывов и 3 плохих, тогда она может меня заинтересовать. Мое время не резиновое, у меня куча книг на очереди:) А также меня не интересует социологические/экологические/антропологические аспекты диет. Пока что надо разобраться с собой и своим здоровьем. Но спасибо за предложение. Я все же просмотрю ее если она у нас в библиотеке есть.

Леся, а вы сами эту книгу читали? что думаете?

Проблема в том, что те, кто "не съел", почему-то сразу же начинают считать себя самыми просвещенными, самыми духовными и самыми возвышенными только от употребления своей диеты, а всех остальных - недочеловеками, которые не знают, что делают и которых надо усиленно просвещать. Т.е. они почему-то начинают считать, что их пищевые предпочтения делают их лучше и умнее других. В народе говорят про таких "моча в голову ударила", но они почему-то со стороны себя не могут видеть, несмотря на все свои сверхъествественные способности.

В данном случае на отзывы смотреть не надо, потому как отзывы плохие - от веганов наверняка Чтобы составить свое, непредвзятое мнение о книге, надо самой прочитать. Ну и не быть заранее негативно настроенной, конечно.Я всю эту книгу не читала, в инете можно отрывки нарыть из книги, но для полного впечатления этого недоcтаточно. С тем же, что я прочитала - я согласна, никакого отторжения не вызвало, пишет она умно, логично и убедительно.

Lesja1, я просмотрела Ваши ссылки.
Они обе из одной и той же оперы "как мясо сделало из обезьяны человека".
Извините, но я не поддерживаю "Теорию эволюции" Дарвина, считаю ее недоказательной.
Вероятно у нас с Вами были разные предки, поэтому такие разные предпочтения в еде и такие расхождения во взглядах.

Хочу заметить, что Австралопитек, которого так упорно приводят в пример в Ваших ссылках, сегодня считается возможным Вашим предком. Возможным, а не доказанным. Это раз.

Два. Теория ЕТН меня тоже как-то не впечатлила. Самый большой мозг по отношению к массе тела – у муравья. И что?

Три. Дедечка Ваш Michael R. Eades, MD во всю продает на сайте свою методику снижения веса и продуктов для снижения веса. Низкоуглеводная диета хотя и снижает вес на практике никак не доказывает полезность и нужность мяса для хорошего здоровья. Зато вероятно приносит дядечке хороший заработок, поэтому ему так выгодно пропагандировать необходимость и даже полезность мяса в рационе человека. Иначе ему продавать будет нечего.

Вы меня не убедили, извините.

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Ничто не стоит нам так дорого и не выглядит так дешево, как наши собственные понты!